I strongly recommend using this page as a simplistic reference point when talking to JW's..
Please let us know their thoughts, if any..
www.jwbeliefs.com/jehovahs-witnesses-believe-animal-suffering-and-death/
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
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Sir David Eady to give judgement on the Watctower Appeal in the Otuo v Morley and Watch Tower case at the High Court tommorrow
by Adwoa Kromo insir david eady sitting as high court judge will hand down judgement tomorrow at 11:00am in the appeal of the decision from master leslie for refusing to strike out the claim as an abuse of process.
in his judgement in november 2014 he stated in his judgement delivered ex-tempore " i am bound to say that this case causes me a good deal of trouble".
from notes that i have from the hearing last week, i will be utterly surprised if the retired judge sir david eady takes a different view.
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defender of truth
Thank you again for keeping us up to date. Please update this thread when you have time. -
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The Watchtower are Right About Blood...
by cofty in... but, they fail to take note of one important detail.. i believe that if we are going to have any chance of reasoning with a jw about blood, this is the place we need to begin.. don't try to convince them that it was only a dietary law.
it wasn't, and they will never go along with it.. don't tell them that saving a life is more important than obeying a law, even a seemingly trivial one.
they take pride in obedience.
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defender of truth
to reverse that position would mean that all those people died needlessly, and what's more, that it's the WTS's fault. The WTS will never dare admit that.
I wonder if they could change their position on blood one day, with a quiet little Questions From Readers article that makes it appear to be a conscience matter. The hardliners could still keep there views on blood transfusions, no matter how illogical, and others could receive lifesaving treatment for them and their children, without fear of judgement or shunning.
Remember, people died due to the Watchtowers position on organ transplants.. Yet they went from referring to it as cannibalism, to it being a conscience matter they would not comment on.
Eventually, the subject of transplant was raised by Dads doctor, and mom scrambled to research the subject in the WTBTS publications. She found there, that it was not acceptable for a Jehovahs Witness to have organ transplants, in fact, it was the equivalent of cannibalism and against Gods Law. Not wanting to displease Jehovah, that was all my parents had to hear. It was an agonizing decision, and one based completely on the information they found in the pages of Watchtower literature. My fathers doctor pleaded with them to reconsider, but they didnt waiver.
...Their sole motivation for reaching this decision was to please Jehovah. They believed and trusted the Watchtower when it said that transplants were cannibalism. Two years after Dads death the WTBTS changed their position. I remember reading the change under "questions from the readers". I remember the sick feeling in the pit of my stomach as I read those words and tried to understand.
www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/coffeeblack.php
Now take a look at the change..
Unacceptable
Watchtower 1967 November 15 pp.702-704
"Sustaining one's life by means of the body or part of the body of another human... would be cannibalism, a practice abhorrent to all civilized people. ... It is not our place to decide whether such operations are advisable from a scientific or medical standpoint. ... Christians who have been enlightened by God's Word do not need to make these decisions based simply on the basis of personal whim or emotion. They can consider the divine principles and use these in making personal decisions as they look to God for direction, trusting him and putting their confidence in the future that he has in store for those who love him."
Watchtower 1975 September 1 p.519
"A peculiar factor sometimes noted is a so-called 'personality transplant.' That is, the recipient in some cases has seemed to adopt certain personality factors of the person from whom the organ came."
Acceptable
Watchtower 1980 March 15 p.31
"There is no Biblical command pointedly forbidding the taking in of other human tissue . It is a matter for personal decision "
www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/transplants.php
To me, one thing is certain. Without the masses of average JW's (who have very little biblical education outside of the pages of a watchtower) being given the chance to see that the current stance on lifesaving blood transfusions is not the irrefutable, black+white certainty they have been indoctrinated into believing it to be, people are going to continue to die needlessly, without the necessary tools to free themselves from indoctrination.. Before it is too late.
Threads like this one of Cofty's can provide those tools, to help people gain the freedom they need to make a life-or-death decision one day.
All arguments are NOT moot.
If even one person reads these points and reconsiders the Watchtower's current position on blood, maybe even waking up from the critical thinking involved in working through the points raised here.. It was all worthwhile.
Every life is precious.
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Daily Express article discussing June Watchtower ''Rise of ISIS and earthquakes are WARNINGS before ARMAGEDDON destroys Earth''
by defender of truth inhowever, according to a group that publishes research about jehovah's witnesses, which is a religion practiced in 240 countries, the creed has a history of prematurely warning of the "end" - before trying to erase such pronouncements from its history.. .
monitors point to several previous predictions, such as a forewarning of armageddon in 1914 although jehovah's witnesses later claimed they had foreseen the outbreak of the first world war, which began in the same year.. .
a spokesman for website jwfacts.com said: "one of the most misleading statements in watchtower publications is that they accurately foretold 1914 to be the 'start' of the conclusion of this system of things.. .
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defender of truth
However, according to a group that publishes research about Jehovah's Witnesses, which is a religion practiced in 240 countries, the creed has a history of prematurely warning of the "End" - before trying to erase such pronouncements from its history.
Monitors point to several previous predictions, such as a forewarning of Armageddon in 1914 – although Jehovah's Witnesses later claimed they had foreseen the outbreak of the First World War, which began in the same year.
A spokesman for website jwfacts.com said: "One of the most misleading statements in Watchtower publications is that they accurately foretold 1914 to be the 'start' of the conclusion of this system of things.
"Rather, 1914 was predicted to be the 'End' of the system of things, the conclusion of Armageddon and the start of the Earthly paradise."
"From 1966 to 1975, the Watchtower regularly implied that Armageddon would arrive in 1975. However, ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses about this date and they will invariably deny there ever being such statements."
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2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
by defender of truth inwhat was it that moved your child to return to jehovah?
asks the speaker.. .
well it was the missed association with the family, says brenda sutton proudly and unflinchingly.. andd heres why, i had always told our kids... i would die for you, i love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave jehovah i wouldnt be there.
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defender of truth
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly.
Andd here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
www.jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/2015-convention-interviewer-praises-parents-who-shunned-their-kid -
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Blood Reasoning...
by iwasblind inas we fade we still do studies with people but only from the scriptures.. one study asked about the blood, so we should the revelant scriptures and asked how she felt about transfusions.. she said that "nothing loses it's life when you receive blood so it is fine in her conscience".
love it!
the scriptures clearly show that the blood being poured out was to show respect that something lost it's life.. maybe you can ask a witness, why it is ok to receive an organ from someone who has passed away but not ok to receive blood from a live person?.
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defender of truth
She said that "nothing loses it's life when you receive blood so it is fine in her conscience"
Excellent point. If anyone wants to read a more in depth coverage of this reasoning, see here:
www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/204070001/watchtower-right-about-blood
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Suffering: the result of Adamic sin?
by confused ini am currently having a study with a pioneer couple to try to reactivate me and get me back into the congregation.
they have asked me to really think about the provision of the ransom sacrifice.
in doing so i have gone back to basics and have already hit a few questions i am thinking of raising.
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defender of truth
Here's an entire thread on the question of animal suffering:
www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/222352/theists-why-does-god-allow-suffering
A good question to ask your 'teachers' is this.. Why did God allow animal suffering before Adam and Eve sinned?
Please read the thread for more informatio, and let us know what your teachers said in response ;)
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Updated online Insight book still using offensive term 'Mentally diseased'
by defender of truth inthey have made changes/updates, such as to the 'genereation' teaching, as mentioned on another thread.. and yet this mistranslated verse still remains, allowing the offensive and hateful application of it to continue.
take a look at these quotes from the online insight book..(watchtower quotes are included as well, handy if you don't already know how they apply this term).. bible words indexed (4 occurrences).
mentally diseased, 1ti 6:4.. .
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defender of truth
They have made changes/updates, such as to the 'Genereation' teaching, as mentioned on another thread.. and yet this mistranslated verse still remains, allowing the offensive and hateful application of it to continue.
Take a look at these quotes from the online Insight book..
(Watchtower quotes are included as well, handy if you don't already know how they apply this term).- Bible Words Indexed (4 occurrences)
MENTALLY DISEASED, 1Ti 6:4.
- Rbi8 pp. 1495-1553 - Reference Bible (Rbi8)
- Abusive Speech (2 occurrences)
(2Pe 2:11) But such talk can be expected from those who indulge in loose conduct, those who are proud and mentally diseased over questionings and debates, and those who disregard or disrespect God’s appointments.
- it-1 p. 35 - Insight, Volume 1
- Epilepsy (2 occurrences)
We still use the word ‘lunatic’ to signify a person mentally diseased, although we have long since ceased to believe in the moon’s influence in such cases.” [This is a quote from a book, but it illustrates the general understanding of the term mentally diseased.]
- it-1 pp. 756-757 - Insight, Volume 1
- Godly Devotion (2 occurrences)
If anyone who professes to serve God relies on his own ideas instead of adhering to the Bible and if his teaching does not ‘accord with godly devotion,’ thus failing to reflect the teacher’s devotion to God, he becomes “mentally diseased.”
- it-1 pp. 971-973 - Insight, Volume 1
- Understanding (2 occurrences)
He is not like those in the apostle Paul’s day who assumed to be teachers of others but were “puffed up with pride, not understanding anything,” unwisely letting themselves become “mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words,” things that produce disunity and a host of bad results.
- it-2 pp. 1138-1141 - Insight, Volume 2
- Will You Heed Jehovah’s Clear Warnings? (2 occurrences)
Well, apostates are “mentally diseased,” and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings.
- w11 7/15 pp. 15-19 - The Watchtower—2011
- Will You Pay Attention to Jehovah’s Clear Warnings? (2 occurrences)
The Bible says that apostates are mentally diseased and that they use their teachings to make others think like them.
- ws11 7/15 pp. 10-16 - The Watchtower (Simplified)—2011
- Make Your Advancement Manifest (2 occurrences)
Paul described such individuals as being “puffed up with pride, not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words.”
- w09 12/15 pp. 11-15 - The Watchtower—2009
- Keep Practicing the Things You Have Learned (2 occurrences)
(Philippians 3:17; Hebrews 5:14) Instead of being “mentally diseasedover questionings and debates about words,” they continued moving ahead in their positive course of godly devotion.
- w02 9/15 pp. 15-20 - The Watchtower—2002
- Firmly Uphold Godly Teaching (2 occurrences)
(1 Timothy 6:5; Galatians 5:15) Of those who caused these arguments, Paul wrote: “If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride, not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words.
- w00 5/1 pp. 8-12 - The Watchtower—2000
- 1 Timothy (2 occurrences)
- Rbi8 1 Timothy 1:1-6:21 - Reference Bible (Rbi8)
m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=mentallydiseased&p=par
And for anyone who claims they are 'just quoting the Bible', see this list of translations of the same verse. Do they say 'mentally diseased'? :
www.biblehub.com/1_timothy/6-4.htm
Newspaper coverage here:
m.huffpost.com/us/entry/985479
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/war-of-words-breaks-out-among-jehovahs-witnesses-2361448.html
Interesting video here:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=ni1U_5nw3kI&fulldescription=1&hl=en&client=mv-google&gl=US -
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Jehovahs Witnesses Tax Exemption in Fishkill, more burden on taxpayers without any benefit to the community..
by defender of truth infishkill the jehovah's witnesses have obtained a partial tax exemption for the rivercrest luxury apartments that the religious group bought last year, and have now purchased an adjacent waterfront property, both in the town of fishkill.. the effect on taxpayers is a shift of the burden for the lost taxes to all other taxpaying shoulders, plus a probable increase in that shift next year.
the loss so far to the town is about $55,000, with other sums snipped from the tax bases of the beacon city school district, the chelsea fire district and dutchess county.. and, it likely means that jehovah's witnesses will come forward with plans for how they'd like to develop the land that they acquired march 13.. the poughkeepsie journal.
jehovah's witnesses eye buying fishkill site for church complexthe two properties sit next to each other in the brockway section of the town, overlooking the hudson river and west of route 9d.. rivercrest apartments is a 250-unit luxury rental complex that the town's assessor values at $31 million.
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defender of truth
Any thoughts on potential issues the IRS would be interested in hearing about?
Anyway, here are 2 articles of interest:
www.thefederalist.com/2015/05/07/religious-nonprofits-plan-now-for-tax-exemption-battles/
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Are You a 607 BCE Specialist?
by God_Delusion inhi guys & gals,.
we're currently preparing for the season finale of the show (to be recorded on sunday, may 24th at 2pm eastern time nyc / 6pm uk time / 4am sydney time.. as we're going to (finally) be covering 607 bce in detail, we're looking for a specialist (or two) that can come on the show and tell everyone about this almighty doctrine.
if you know your 587 from your 607 and why the 1914 and 1919 dates are important to jws (although most have no idea why), please send us an email to [email protected], using "i'm a 607er" in the subject line and let us know why we should pick you as a guest on the season finale.. can't wait to hear from you!.
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defender of truth
This is our resident expert..